PYP s1e4 Jason Graham-Nye interview

Jason Graham-Nye Interview

[00:00:00] Catherine: [00:00:00] Hi and welcome to pitch your PhD. In this podcast, you will hear from PhD students from the past and the present to inspire the future. I’m your host, Dr. Catherine Ball.

[00:00:11]Sometimes in life, surprising turns might occur growing up. I was laser focused on a certain pathway and like getting into medicine, but life, the universe had a different plan for me because I missed my placement by a hair’s width, the life I had expected for myself veered off and then turned around again and around again and around again to where I am right now. Very happily. I should add.

[00:00:34]So today I’m speaking with Jason Graham-Nye a PhD candidate at the University of Technology Sydney. And I would have to say, not your average PhD student. So Jason grew up in Sydney. He claimed that as a child, he was interested in everything other than study, which is ironic considering how much he’s thrown himself into academia over the year.

[00:00:54] His undergraduate study was in Japanese and economics followed by a diploma in education. [00:01:00] Then upon finishing university, he walked into a role as a stockbroker, but that is not where Jason’s story ends. His interest with Japan saw him earn a master’s in Japanese socio-linguistics with a Japanese translator qualification, and then he pivoted his life, moved to the U S and built a completely new business with his wife called G diaper, a renewable baby nappy product.

[00:01:24] That was about 17 years ago. In that time, his passion for sustainable solutions has grown along with this realization that the corporate world does not hold the answers to sustainability alone. So while he was casting around for clues to learn more about sustainability, he turned his sights towards academia.

Why PhD

[00:01:44] Jason you’ve had such an amazing life journey from stockbroking to entrepreneurship. I’m sure you’ve been called a polymath in your time, but why did you decide that a PhD was the next thing that you needed to do?

[00:01:57]Jason: [00:01:57] Well, I thought that having [00:02:00] 17 years in the business world and not having a business degree and going into building a business, you sort of learning on the job and you’re seeing what’s out there and solutions. And what have you and not having a business degree, meaning we could run the business a bit differently was really interesting and compelling. But as we went on and looking at consumer behavior around sustainable products, we realized there was a big problem there. And I was sort of at my wit’s end in a way it’s like, there’s nothing there, there there’s large corporations trying to do things that seem sort of band-aid solutions, you know? in our space, things like recycling plastic bottles, it’s like, that’s really not going to get it this day. So I just, I think it was because of that, it was a bit of a dead end. I thought well, how else can we cut this. And I heard of UTS and the Institute for Sustainable Futures. And I thought maybe there’s something there.

[00:02:43] So that was one element of getting into it And the other element was I was a subject of a PhD when I was about 24 and it was always stuck in the back of my head. I thought that’s a really interesting thing that guy did.

[00:02:53] Catherine: [00:02:53] What was that he did?

[00:02:55] Jason: [00:02:55] He was a Japanese linguist and academic looking at identity [00:03:00] slippage. So people who’ve gotten a high level of fluency in one language, the way you show up physically and in every way, when you speak a different language like French, and other languages, if that slips back into your native tongue, what does that, mean? And so it sort of questioned what fluency, meant and what mother tongue meant. And so it was quite, I was teaching that high school and, this, researcher came in interviewed me four or five times.

[00:03:20]and then sort of, I don’t know, two years later, this paper was published and I’m like, Oh, look at that. Wow. And It was fascinating. There was like maybe 10 of us were interviewed. So those were the two things that got me into PhD at fifty. I don’t know what I was thinking, but anyway,

Wider meaning

[00:03:35] Catherine: [00:03:35] So Who else have you got in your life and your history that has sort of helped direct you towards where you are right now?

[00:03:40]Jason: [00:03:40] I think I had teachers, the school I went to, was a good school, a school. I enjoyed And then I went back and taught at that school. So it’s some people there who taught me as a student then became my colleagues, which is kind of a different relationship which is kind of good. And I think through that, and then through my short-lived experience in the financial market, I just got this, [00:04:00] really big thing in my head about making meaning and money, Like, can we make meaning and money in our lives? Because I felt like if you want to make meaning, go and work at the UN. So my wife, when we met, she was working for the UN in Zanzibar doing HIV and AIDS research and very tough financially. And I was a stockbroker for numerous securities making great money, but it was really meaningless. I mean, it was shockingly meaningless work for me anyway.

[00:04:24] And so when I stepped off that and became a high school teacher, I thought, ah, this has lots of meanings to it. But again, there wasn’t a lot of money there. So the whole journey of the company and my wife and I had been about how do we do that? And so that’s been a, that realization or that challenge, I suppose in life, because so much. so it’s like, you see people who are very wealthy, but there’s not a lot of meaning in their lives potentially and then those who are doing making incredible difference, but they’re really struggling financially. Can you bring them together? So things like B corporations is an interesting construct where you’ve got this certification for companies who are doing good in the world. that’s been

[00:04:56] Catherine: [00:04:56] the big

[00:04:56] Jason: [00:04:56] for me.

[00:04:56]Catherine: [00:04:56] Profit with purpose

Journey leading up to PhD

[00:04:58] what’s the pathway to [00:05:00] getting into a PhD program. What was your journey?

[00:05:02] Jason: [00:05:02] I had no idea I could actually do it. And so I knew UTS had an Institute for Sustainable futures And I had this masters from 20 years ago in not the related field at all. And so I just took upon, and I really leveraged in that application the fact that I had these seventeen years experience and the Ellen MacArthur foundation is in the UK, the circular economy 100. So we were one of the first companies to join that. And we’d written a blueprint for them about circling nappy solutions for governments. So I think that got them over the edge. And also I really liked running long distances And that got two ticks next to the application, Cause so they must think, oh, this guy knows what pains look like and he’s persistent. And if he just gives up on his badge, he knows where to run a long way away. Yeah.

Thesis Focus

[00:05:48]Catherine: [00:05:48] So how has your thesis forming at the moment? Have you got the skeleton of the introduction down, what’s the title? What are you actually focused on?

[00:05:53] Jason: [00:05:53] I’m looking at barriers and enablers to, the transition to a circular economy and the specifics that are around a circular [00:06:00] nappy solution in the developing and developed worlds. And So I’m interested in, and it’s a social research project.

[00:06:07] I’m interested in the people part of it and warming up to I think, called social practice theory, which is a newish way of looking at how we consume things.

[00:06:14]Catherine: [00:06:14] Is this similar to like social licensing, like having a social license to do things.

[00:06:18]Jason: [00:06:18] I’m not sure it’s that what it does do is break away. It just completely confronts the economic theory that consumers, citizens have agency.

[00:06:25] They have very little agency and it goes back to the very thing around greenwashing, Which is really interesting, that they don’t have as much agency. In fact, they have very little agency and there’s this structuration theory around, you’ve got the structure and then the agent, and then how they interact and really it’s recursive. They influence each other. so if you have a structure and you have an agent within it. how those things interact, kind of interests me. So to date, the biggest floor in consumer, in sustainable consumption is that, consumers think they’ve got great choice, and there’s this notion called the attitude action gaps.

[00:06:57] So If you ask a hundred people do you want to make the greener [00:07:00] choice 95% say yes, but only 5% actually do it. That’s a big problem.

[00:07:03] Catherine: [00:07:03] So this idea of a paradox of choice, you know, that we’ve actually just got so many options thrown at us that we actually can’t make a decision. Is that a fallacy or is that a reality?

[00:07:11] Jason: [00:07:11] That’s true. you can get overwhelmed with choice. That’s true. but I think, where I’m driving towards is people at one level said “oh I’ll make the better choice the greener choice.” but when it gets to the checkout, they just died and the drivers there are cost and convenience, which is at the heart of capitalism, you know? And so there’s lots of great solutions around sustainability, but are they cost too much? You know, like the first Tesla costs like $200,000, so how’s that gonna work? But then there was some subsidies and then the price of the particular materials came down and now it’s a little bit more affordable. So, that’s really what I’m kind of interested in because I think all the technology’s there.

[00:07:46] So the nappies that we have are made of Bio material like composting three weeks and it’s fabulous, but it’s the consumer piece to it. We want a full circle, a full loop. So we sell, collect compost and sell the compost. there’s different behavior changes in there [00:08:00] it’s a price premium but we’re saving the councils and the government so much money in landfill.

[00:08:04] So the economic model needs to be revisited And then policy needs to be revisited. So it’s quite complicated. So in the linear world, the consumers have an easy life. They just choose a product and then dispose of it. But in a circular world where we’re trying to drive towards it’s a multiplayer game. You need policies, And your business model, you need consumers to think of it differently. so yeah, that’s what it’s really. Yeah.

[00:08:24] Catherine: [00:08:24] You know, this idea that you can actually have social enterprise is becoming very sexy in the business world. Are you bumping up against that a bit in your thesis?

[00:08:31] Jason: [00:08:31] Uh, not quite yet. Cause I’m still focused on the consumer bit, my thesis is around moments of change in the literature that talks about becoming a parent as a moment of change attitudinally, particularly the data shows moms change more nappies than the dads and then If you look at moms particularly that transition from womanhood to, motherhood is that moment. There’s a door that opened. And it certainly was for us because we weren’t super green before we had a son, but then it was like, we’re bringing life into the world. Oh my God, it’s the future.

[00:08:56] Jason: [00:08:56] that’s a really prime opportunity to do something.

Thesis application

[00:08:59] Catherine: [00:08:59] What kind of [00:09:00] the real world applications from that thesis then going forwards?

[00:09:03] Jason: [00:09:03] This is about sort of being a pracademic. So we’ve got,  pilots in Indonesia and a pilot in Paris, France for this full circular nappy solution.

[00:09:12]So it’s a solution where the product is delivered collected, composted and self compost and I’m really interested in the difference between the developed and developing economies and whether one is more prone to go circular than the other. And so you know, if you think about Africa, they never had copper wires. They never had phones like cabled phones.. They just went straight to mobile phone. And I went straight to mobile payments with a flip phone back in the day. And

[00:09:35] Jason: [00:09:35] so completely leapfrogged, all these other infrastructures that the more developed economies had. Similarly in Indonesia, you’ve got this country, that’s got

[00:09:42] a very high birth rate I think it’s four babies per family. Thousands of islands, no landfill facilities. And, if you put all that together, so one baby uses 5,000 nappies. Sorry.

[00:09:54] Catherine: [00:09:54] I feel quite guilty right now

[00:09:56] Jason: [00:09:56] We have two kids. We went through 10,000. Yeah. Yeah. That’s all [00:10:00] good. but what happens is, and you’ve got that particular country is moving into the middle class quickly. So they want benefits. They want the things that come with being in the middle class, like the convenience of disposable nappies. And so in Australia, in developed economies like Australia and America, England, 2% of our solid waste is nappies. In Indonesia, if you think of their Marine plastic waste, 30% is plastic nappies. So, because they have no landfill facilities, they just get thrown right in the water or they’re burned. And so in terms of the chopping up of the papers, one, is going to focus on that particular study, that pilot we’re running and, interviews with parents and others to really look at, the impact of that circular solution and what it means for them. But it’s, not just sort of  behavior. It’s more applying social practice theory, which really the consumer isn’t it at the center, of it. there’s a whole sort of series of elements. There’s the materials used for the product.

[00:10:52] There’s the meaning behind what that consumption is for them. and then sort of the knowledge on how to use it. it’s fairly complicated, but I’m just interested in that [00:11:00] part of it. So that’s the, Indonesian pilot, and then the next pilot would be on Paris.

[00:11:04] Catherine: [00:11:04] So what’s the Parisians attitude to nappies?

[00:11:08] It’s remarkable

[00:11:08] Jason: [00:11:08] They’ve got, well, here’s the one clear difference is that in developed economies, they’ve got a very clear waste regulation framework, which means you can’t compost human waste. So we’ve already got a problem. And so, in Paris, you’ve

[00:11:21] got a green

[00:11:22] mayor like a member of the green party who has green values. So she’s given us a, exemption so we can compost human waste and that trial is going quite well. And I think there’s a fairly

[00:11:31] Jason: [00:11:31] high level of interest, but there’s no question in Indonesia, there is much higher level of interest, as we’re saying just early on. As we see this thing unfold, but they’re really ashamed of the fact that their beaches are covered in nappies, but they have no, choice and looking at these pre-surveys and mid survey, it’s really interesting to say they feel so empowered now. They can actually make a decision. The other element that’s happening is it seems like if the hypothesis that’s bubbling in the back of my head is if you’ve got a stronger, tighter community, who look out for each other, there’s a much better [00:12:00] chance that circular solutions will get hold. Whereas in more developed economies, we’re sort of our own insular selves, there might be a bit more work to be done. So that’s going to be the next three or four years of writing and reading.

[00:12:13] Catherine: [00:12:13] well, it sounds like, it could be transformational, right? Because if I had the opportunity to do that and it would have cost me money, I would have certainly signed up for it because I have that ability. So I sit here as a white woman with privilege in Australia. So for me, yes, of course I’d pay extra. How do you think about when you’re forming your thesis, considering the economic fallout and impact of removing that easy access to cheap nappies in poorer places?

[00:12:36] Jason: [00:12:36] It’s interesting. So there’s a lot of funding in Southeast Asia from the biggest polluters. There’s a $1.5 billion fund to end plastic waste. Of course we applied for it and it’s like oh, you’re not recycling our product. Yeah, no, no, we’re good. So it’s really interesting, right? That they’re in that world, they’re never going to stop the upstream manufacturing extraction.

[00:12:55] So there’s a cup of oil in every nappy. So you have to extract oil to make a product that’s used for about [00:13:00] three hours, landfill for 500 years or in the ocean. So it’s very fluid. that’s the kind of the forces we’re dealing with, which is really, really hard to kind of cope with but You’ve just got to keep pressing on.

Academic is the missing link

[00:13:11]Catherine: [00:13:11] And so now you’re getting this bridge to academia. Are you feeling that this has been a missing link in how you’ve been thinking and working?

[00:13:16] Jason: [00:13:16] I think so because it’s been such a dead end, it’s like this, circle going around around, and even the circular economy is a concept, there’s 114 definitions of what the circular economy is from reuse, reduce, recycle. So that’s three Rs. If You can get it down to 10 Rs, which is quite interesting. So the first is actually refuse. Like don’t use it. So in nappies you just do elimination communication, which is no nappies. And you watch the cues of your little one, which of course we can all do it because we’ve got so much time on our hands, and we’re just wandering around the house all day.

[00:13:44] Catherine: [00:13:44] you know, that’s really easy to, to, you know, in the car.

[00:13:49] Jason: [00:13:49] exactly. So the whole the premise of circular economy, even though it seems relatively new, to those out in the world, It’s been 10 or 15 years, but it’s then being fairly bastardized because of what’s [00:14:00] happened is every man and their dog says circular economy is recycling. And those that got a bit more knowledge like, oh, that is such a cop out because of what it does it means I can keep producing a whole bunch of products here made from oil and other extractive things.

[00:14:14] And then we’ll just clean it up down here. And even the whole recycling thing, if you’ve ever seen that, keep America beautiful ad from 1970. So Keep american beautiful. Keep Australia beautiful. Those campaigns were started by the big polluters. It’s quite disgusting. Actually, if you see where that’s come from

[00:14:27] Catherine: [00:14:27] It’s a complete manipulation

[00:14:28] Jason: [00:14:28] It is greenwashing at its very best and it pushes onto the consumer, the mess that the producers and that’s really quite gross, in that we’re as consumers we’re trying to do our best and the councils are trying to do recycling. The producers are sitting there going, thanks very much. We’re done.

[00:14:43] Catherine: [00:14:43] So the polluter pays principal is a bit of liar..

[00:14:46] Jason: [00:14:46] So the EU got extended producer responsible laws now coming into action, which is fantastic. But I think here in Australia. We’re miles behind and it’s they’re voluntary, and who cares and you know, but it’s interesting where the responsibility gets shoved from one to the other. [00:15:00] Whereas this pilot we’re doing as a

[00:15:02] brand, speaking as a company owning person here, We want to take our mess back. We want to monetize that. and sell it. that’s the smart money, right?

Role of PhD in professional life

[00:15:10] Catherine: [00:15:10] Do you think your PhD, your thesis is going to give you some academic way to start talking to the C-suite, start talking to the boardrooms about how they can make decisions at the top to allow people like yourself to take advantage of the opportunities they’re putting on the table.

[00:15:23] Jason: [00:15:23] Absolutely.  I’m the chair of, the citizen task force for New South Wales Circular, which is a government body, and we’re just getting going now. And I think you’ll see some good advances in that space or that move to the circular economy. There’s more money coming into it, but it’s

[00:15:35] Catherine: [00:15:35] definitely,

[00:15:36] Jason: [00:15:36] it’s a journey and I’m not sure the current administration here is fully on board, with all things sustainable. So I think, it’s going to take some time And I honestly think this opportunity I had to join New South Wales circulars because I was a PhD candidate. And you know, that board, is all PhDs and I think It was a nice combo deal of all. He’s had 17 years business experience in America and raise money, felt the force of the opposition. And now he’s [00:16:00] getting into academia. So I think it’s been massively helpful.  that’s kind of the excitement for me

[00:16:04] Catherine: [00:16:04] And what role do you see your PhD playing in that conversation that you then have? Do you feel like you need a PhD to be taken seriously at governmental level?

[00:16:11] Jason: [00:16:11] I think so. when you say have the conversation literally, like I think if I had done bachelor’s master’s PhD, I was like at 27 old phD graduate. I couldn’t have that conversation cause I haven’t had 17 years of war stories, you know? And there’s a particular energy when you walk in to meet a minister, or, you know, CEOs of large companies, you sort of have learned how to hold yourself. Having had some experience the boardroom yourself, If I can imagine what it would be like, if I was a 27 year old with a PhD, which is a huge achievement, but there’s just a different set of skills I have.

[00:16:42] Jason: [00:16:42] And I think for my own brain, I just want to be more expansive. I really want to understand how humans tick. I’m just really fascinated. that really intelligent well inform people. It sort of goes back to the greenwashing thing for a little bit. It’s like, we continually make the same, kind of errors in behavior. And there’s no judgment on anyone. Like we’re all doing it, but it’s just like how it’s like [00:17:00] the water we swim in you know, we’ve done all the science. We know what we’re doing to the planet. That’s not the issue. The issue is, well, how do we transition from here to there? And that’s what I’m really interested in

[00:17:08]Catherine: [00:17:08] is that what you’re wanting to use now as the keys to have these conversations around real sustainable values in our current economics climate?

[00:17:16] Jason: [00:17:16] I think a PhD in the process sort of enjoying the journey as well as the destination, but the process of it has been fascinating, but yeah, ultimately I think it gives you a qualification or a ticket to then have big conversations with people who are willing to listen. But particularly, as we get closer to kind of the edge in a way, it’s like, come on, let’s go. So that’s really why that’s one big driver. Yeah.

Industry Experience in PhD

[00:17:37]Catherine: [00:17:37] So those lessons that you’ve learned from like running your own business for 17 years, what are those are you bringing to your PhD and which ones of those are you dropping from your PhD?

[00:17:47]Jason: [00:17:47] It’s that dance between, the corporate world, the business world and academia, and trying to have a nice combination of both. And I feel like, when I was starting the reading, super theoretical and it’s like, wow, that’s where the brain was getting stretched, which was quite [00:18:00] satisfying. when I think about my PhD, and I’m doing it by chapters sort of by four or five pieces that are hopefully going to get published. I wanted then try and take that more to the masses, you know, can I write something that’s a bit more accessible to the corporate world that can actually affect real change at the consumer level.

[00:18:16] So, being able to, first of all, develop how I can write really well academically, and then being able to then take that writing and make it more accessible.  I think a lot of entrepreneurial ism is all about communication and how do you do it really clearly. And I think that’s what academia as well. There’s no point doing amazing research If you can’t, communicated clearly. And it’s interesting, in UTS I think all the university PhD programs have that sort of pitch your thesis in three or five minutes at that succinct, like get to the point really, really quickly. So that’s a skill that I learned in business that I hope to apply here.

Challenges in PhD

[00:18:46]Catherine: [00:18:46] So, being somebody who’s very autonomous, being somebody who adapts very well to the environment and is a game changer. What’s slowing you down. What’s frustrating you with your PhD at the moment.

[00:18:55]Jason: [00:18:55] Well, I feel as a translator, so translating that interesting [00:19:00] job where you you’re translating from one world, or one language to another, but it feels like the move from the corporate to the academic world is a bit of a translation job. And it’s really interesting to get used to what that feels like. And so, UTS, I have great autonomy. and it’s fantastic and I’ve got really good supervisors. it’s been pretty great. I think it’s been interesting to learn a new way of writing. you know, I think my writing’s been critiqued as a bit too businessy. a bit too Clippy and I joke and say, can’t we just knock this out with emojis couldn’t we just do emoji’s but yeah, exactly, thank you.

[00:19:32] Ah, don’t give me ideas. Um, but I mean, shaping, reworking, how I’m writing and then the rating. I mean, these concepts are quite they’re full on, right? It’s just like, what? Wait, I’ve got to read that again.

[00:19:43]I think the translation job is, what you’re reading and how you’re writing and how you’re thinking develops. And actually what’s interesting is the time you need to dwell on what you’ve just read to then write something that’s of any interest.

PhD Takeaways

[00:19:54]Catherine: [00:19:54] what biggest skill sets you think you’re going to get from doing a PhD?

[00:19:58] Jason: [00:19:58] I think the big deep, [00:20:00] theoretical work, like and I think my supervisor has been very helpful and gentle with giving me lots of feedback because it’s just a different world, like diving into different theories and comparing them. And is this valid and that valid And you know, in the business world, you

[00:20:12] can convince the head of the baby department at Walmart to buy our nappies. that was a big discussion few years back. Um, but this is different. I’ve got to defend decision to choose this theory over that theory. And that’s quite different, but then also these theories, it’s just they’re so nuanced and there’s such a volume of reading to be done, to then figure out where does that sit with what I’m doing?

[00:20:32] So that’s the skill I’m really interested in that it’s like a next level ability to really bring it on knowledge in and analyze it and then produce something out of it. And then the next, you know, obviously the data collection and the conclude, all that stuff. So heaps to learn. I can’t wait.

After PhD

[00:20:47]Catherine: [00:20:47] So at the end of this, so in three years time, you have your phD, what will you do then?

[00:20:52] Jason: [00:20:52] um, I just want to see what unfolds.

[00:20:54] I think it’s the particular topic is on topic like this whole notion of sustainability. it’s not going [00:21:00] away. And I think if my PhD was on the history of Latin, for example, it would be very different. I feel like it’s the right time for new thinking around what we’re trying to do. and you know, that period of time teaching high school, I think it was the most enjoyable ever.

[00:21:12] And  the students now I’d still keep in touch with them. And so doing some teaching would be great, but also, applying it in the real world, like I think coming in as a business-y person thinking are things happen in academia, but that didn’t get applied back into the real world I would really want to break that completely. So it might mean, can I write a book out of it or can I do podcast or something? I just want to, how do you get those ideas out. That will be the focus, after a PhD

[00:21:35] Catherine: [00:21:35] Maybe politics. C-suite you want to get back in the boardroom again?

[00:21:40] Jason: [00:21:40] Yeah, why not? I think it gives you a lot of credit. I mean, if you seriously I mean, people in boardrooms often have MBAs and what have you, but this is sort of a next level, so yeah, I’m excited.

Advice for taking PhD

[00:21:49]Catherine: [00:21:49] So if there was somebody who was maybe in their sixties or seventies, listening to this thinking, oh, you know, time has passed or whatever, what advice would you give them?

[00:21:56] Jason: [00:21:56] I must say the other element to why I got into this one was the being the [00:22:00] subject of a PhD, but the other was my father’s dear friend at the age of 65, went back and did a PhD in history. He was a Doctor history of medicine, in New South Wales. And that always stuck with me. I was thinking about that coming in here today.  He broke his story. He was a genius and we have dinner you know, my parents had their friends over for dinner and sit with them. And I’m like, so what are you up to your, Bruce?

[00:22:17] And you think, 65, whatever. he was playing golf was me. I don’t know. and he’s like, oh, no second year PhD I’m like, bloody hell. It was really inspirational. So there’s no time like the present. It’s never too late. I really genuinely found that there’s a different part of my pride and crying. It’s really cool feeling. So there’s no atrophy going on. So it’s really good,

[00:22:35] Catherine: [00:22:35] So you’ve got quite a few inspiring people that have sort of all kind of drawn you through and towards this. And I guess for your kids, you’re going to be part of that in 20 years time, when they talk about doing their PhD. Well, my dad, we got back to Australia and he decided he wanted to make a difference and be taken seriously. So he started a PhD.  So to summarize today. I think I worried when I was starting this conversation with you, that you were just going to say to me all this PhD, you it’s [00:23:00] just an itch I need to scratch.

[00:23:00] It’s just something I’ve never done before. It’s just a tick box, you know, take all of this. But what I’ve gathered is that this is actually fundamental to the next stage of how you personally help engender some change in the world going forwards. So would you say your PhD is more than just a thesis for you going through.

[00:23:18]Jason: [00:23:18] absolutely. I mean, it’s, the next 49. I’m keep thinking I’m going to die at a hundred. So I’m going to say 49. years, maybe not The Chinese say we live to 120 it’s two 60 year blocks. So, from here to 120, I think a PhD is a really important next thing. so yeah, I’m excited.

[00:23:33]Catherine: [00:23:33] Thanks so much for your time today.

[00:23:35] Jason: [00:23:35] Thank you.